Liberation without victory: Anne Applebaum's unmissable interview with Volodymir Zelensky

The prestigious writer and Pulitzer Prize winner Anne Applebaum together with journalist Jeffrey Goldberg - editor in chief of The Atlantic - interviewed Ukrainian President Volodimir Zelensky who spoke about the second phase of the Russian invasion of his country and spoke about the chances of a victory still in military defeat. At his workplace in Kiev, the capital, the European leader explained to the renowned media what Ukraine needs to survive. But he also referred to the price that his people have already paid from February 24 to the present day, when 51 days of intrusion are celebrated.

Here are the most noteworthy paragraphs of The Atlantic:

“Kiev is now half normal. Burned Russian tanks have been removed from the access roads to the city, traffic lights work, the metro works, and oranges can be purchased. A cheerful balalaika orchestra was performing for refugees returning to the main train station earlier this week, the day we arrived to meet Volodymyr Zelensky, the president of Ukraine,” the authors note.

“Normality is misleading. Although the Russians failed in their opening campaign, they continue to bomb the capital and are now gathering in the east for a new attack on Ukraine. Zelensky must prepare his country, and the world, for battles that could be deadlier than anything seen so far. The general in charge of Kiev's defense, Alexander Gruzevich, told us during a tour of the devastated northwestern suburbs that he expects the Russians to try to return to the capital using an intensified tactic of 'scorched earth' along the way: total destruction by ground artillery and air strikes, followed by the arrival of troops”, they continued.

Applebaum and Goldberg continue: When we met with Zelensky in Kiev on Tuesday night, he told us the same thing: the optimism currently expressed by many Americans and Europeans - and even some Ukrainians - is unjustified. If the Russians are not expelled from the eastern provinces of Ukraine, Zelensky said, “they can return to central Ukraine and even to Kiev. It's possible. Now is not the time for victory.” Ukraine can win - and by “winning” it means continuing to exist as a sovereign, albeit permanently besieged State - only if its allies in Washington and throughout Europe move swiftly to sufficiently arm the country. “We have a very small opportunity,” he said.

“It was late when we met Zelensky in his compound. The surrounding streets were barricaded and empty, and the building itself was almost completely dark. Soldiers with flashlights led us through a labyrinth of corridors with sandbags to a windowless and brightly lit room, adorned only with Ukrainian flags. There was no formal protocol, no long wait, nor were we told to sit at the end of a long table. Zelensky, the comedian who has become a world icon of freedom and courage, entered the room quietly,” said the authors.

The author of The Iron Curtain and the editor of The Atlantic highlighted Zelensky's particular entry to the place where they interviewed him: “Hello!” , he said, cheerfully, and then proceeded to complain about his back. (“I have a back, and that's why I have some problems, but that's okay!”). He thanked us for not filming the interview: Although he has been a professional television actor throughout his adult life, it's a relief not to be filmed from time to time.

“Both on and off camera, Zelensky behaves deliberately unpretentiously. In a part of the world where leadership often involves a rigid stance and pompous manners - and where the signage of military authority requires, at the very least, very visible epaulettes - he, on the other hand, evokes sympathy and feelings of trust precisely because he sounds, in the words of a well-known Ukrainian, 'like one of we'. He is a kind of anti-Putin: Instead of telegraphing a murderous cold-eyed superiority, he wants people to understand him as an ordinary man, a middle-aged father with back problems,” they emphasized.

“We began the interview by reminding Zelensky, the Jewish president of a largely Christian Orthodox and Catholic country, that his words were going to appear on Good Friday in the Western calendar and just before the first seder of Passover, a holiday that marks the liberation of an enslaved nation from an evil dictator.”

“'We have pharaohs in neighboring countries, 'Zelensky said, smiling. (Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko is, in the minds of many Ukrainians, a kind of pharaoh attached to Putin.) But even though Ukrainians face a formidable enemy, they don't long for an exodus: 'We're not going anywhere'. Nor does Zelensky plan to spend 40 years wandering in the desert. 'We already have 30 years of our independence. I would not want us to fight for our independence for another 10 years, '” Applebaum and Goldberg wrote.

“The Russian invasion has made him doubt whether it is still possible to associate religion with morality. 'I don't understand when the religious representatives of Russia' - here he was referring to the pro-Putin patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church - 'they say that they empower soldiers to kill Ukrainians'. And what is worse, 'I cannot understand how a Christian country, the Russian Federation, with the largest Orthodox community in the world, is killing people these very days'. During the Easter season, the Russians are planning 'a big battle in Donbas', the Russian-occupied region in the far eastern part of Ukraine. 'This is not Christian behavior at all, as I understand it. On Easter they will kill, and they will kill them. '”

Applebaum and Godberg continued: As a result, many Ukrainians are going to spend the holy season under siege, hiding in basements. Others won't live to see the party at all. Just a few hours ago, first thing on Friday morning, Russian bombs hit Kiev again. “Ukraine is definitely not in the mood to celebrate,” Zelensky said. “People often pray for the future of their families and children. I believe that today they will pray for the present, to save everyone.”

“Zelensky spends much of his time on the phone, on Zoom, on Skype, answering the questions of presidents and prime ministers, often the same questions, repeated to satiety. 'I like new questions, 'he says. 'It's not interesting to answer the questions you've already heard. ' He is frustrated, for example, by repeated requests from his wish list for weapons systems. 'When some leaders ask me what weapons I need, I need a moment to calm down, because I told them that last week. It's groundhog day. I feel like Bill Murray. '”

“He says he has no choice but to keep trying. 'I come and say I need this particular weapon. You have it and here it is; we know where it is stored. Can you give it to us? We can even fly with our own cargo planes and pick it up; we can even send three planes a day. We need armored vehicles, for example. And not one a day. We need 200 to 300 a day. They're not personal taxis, just for me; our soldiers need transportation. There are flights available, everything can be arranged, we can do all the logistics. '”

This list includes, according to the authors of the note: multi-launch rocket systems; armored vehicles (personnel carrier, infantry, among others); T-72 tanks or similar tanks from the United States or Germany; air defense systems S-300, “BUK” or western equivalents; military aircraft, which Ukraine considered essential. Artillery pieces.

“It's not that the various presidents and prime ministers who profess their sympathy for the Ukrainian cause don't want to help,” Zelensky said: 'They are not against us. They just live in a different situation. As long as they haven't lost their parents and children, they don't feel the same way we do. ' It compares with the talks he has with the extraordinary defenders of Mariupol, the besieged port city on the Black Sea where 21,000 civilians may have been killed so far. 'For example, they say, 'We need help; we have four hours. ' And even in Kiev we don't understand what four hours are. In Washington, I'm sure they don't understand. However, we are grateful to the United States, because planes with weapons continue to arrive. '”

“Zelensky's chief of staff, Andriy Yermak, spoke to us later that evening, and he also expressed his confusion about the pace at which the Biden administration is moving. Washington is providing new weapons every day, and President Joe Biden has just committed an additional $800 million for the defense of Ukraine. Yermak told us that he and Zelensky have strong relations with many key American actors, a break with the previous administration, which withdrew its ambassador just before Donald Trump's 'perfect phone call' with Zelensky (the call that triggered the first impeachment) and never replaced it. Biden, Yermak said, is 'a man who can be trusted, not just a politician'. He had praise for the Secretaries of State and Defense, and for the leaders of Congress. And he praised Biden's national security adviser, Jake Sullivan: 'There isn't a single minute when we haven't talked specifically or in substance, 'he said.

“So everyone is great, but the guns don't arrive fast enough? 'Please tell me who else I should talk to, 'said Yermak.”

Applebaum and Goldberg continued: Zelensky understands that his task is not simply to make demands for weapons and express urgency, but also to overcome the old stereotypes of Ukraine as a corrupt and incompetent country, as well as Russian propaganda that denies Ukraine the right to be a state. It wants to present an image of Ukraine as a modern and liberal state, unified by civic nationalism and not purely ethnic.

“The United States, Britain, the EU and European countries have always been skeptical about our development, our “Europeanity,” Zelensky said. But now “many of them have changed their view of Ukraine and see us as equals”. He doesn't have time for international institutions. When asked about the role of the United Nations in defending Ukraine, one of its member states, vis-à-vis Russia, a member of the UN Security Council, rolls its eyes and makes a tragicomic face. “Good thing we don't have a video,” he says. “You just have to describe in words what you see on my face.” Both Zelensky and Yermak have been thinking and talking about what alternative international institutions might look like. Perhaps there should be a list of human rights violations or war crimes that trigger automatic responses, Yermak suggested to us. Right now, the process of issuing statements, announcing sanctions, giving answers of any kind is too complex, too bureaucratic and, above all, too slow.

“But if Western leaders can frustrate Zelensky, the Russians send him to despair. From time to time, since the war began, he has spoken in Russian and addressed the Russian public, something he is used to doing: This is what he used to do for a living. His film and television production company was one of the largest in the region, with an office in Moscow and spectators throughout the former Soviet Union.”

“His fruitful relationship with Russia and the Russians came to an end in 2014, when people he had known for years stopped talking to him: 'I just didn't expect people, many colleagues, acquaintances - I thought they were friends, but they weren't - to stop picking up the phone. ' Since then, many people you know have changed, 'it has become more brutal'. As Russia has been shutting down alternatives to state-owned media — shutting down independent newspapers, television stations and radio stations — Zelensky has realized that his former acquaintances have withdrawn even further. 'Even that small part of intelligent people, who were there, began to live in this information bubble', and it is very difficult for them to break through. 'It's the North Korean virus. People receive absolutely vertical integrated messages. People have no other way; they live in it. ' The author of the messages is clear: 'Putin has invited people to this information bunker, so to speak, without their knowledge, and they live in it. It is, as the Beatles used to sing, a yellow submarine. '”

The text continues: Now, when Russian propaganda becomes more baroque, it is sometimes difficult for him to know how to process it. Maybe that's why he often resorts to cultural analogies: “The way they say we eat people here, that we have killer pigeons, special biological weapons... They make videos, create content and show Ukrainian birds that supposedly attack their planes. Putin and Lukashenko make it look like some kind of political Monty Python.”

“For Ukraine to have a secure future, he says, the Russian information barrier will have to be broken. Russians don't just need access to facts; they need help understanding their own history, what they have done to their neighbors. At the moment, Zelensky says, 'they are afraid to admit their guilt. ' He compares them to 'alcoholics [who] do not admit that they are alcoholics'. If they want to recover, 'they have to learn to accept the truth'. Russians need leaders they choose, leaders they trust, 'leaders who can reach out and say, 'Yes, we did. ' That's how it worked in Germany. '”

“Throughout the conversation, Zelensky displayed his gifts of spontaneity, irony and sarcasm. He didn't tell jokes, exactly, but he said he can't completely part with humor. 'I think any normal person can't survive without it. Without a sense of humor, as surgeons say, they would not be able to perform surgeries, to save lives and also to lose people. They would simply lose their minds without humor. '”

Applebaum and Goldberg continue with the interview: The same thing happens now with the Ukrainians: “We can see the tragedy we have, and it is difficult to live with it. But you have to live with it... You can't take seriously what Russian politicians and Lukashenko say every day. If you take it seriously, you'd better hang yourself.”

Is Putin afraid of humor? , asked by the authors of the article in The Atlantic.

“'A lot, '” Zelensky said. Humor, he explained, reveals deeper truths. The famous television series starring Zelensky, Servant of the People, mocked the pomposity of Ukrainian politicians, attacked corruption and portrayed the little one as a hero; many of his sketches were ingenious satires of political leaders and their attitudes. 'Jesters were allowed to tell the truth in ancient kingdoms, 'he said, but Russia 'fears the truth'. Comedy remains 'a powerful weapon' because it is accessible. 'Complex mechanisms and political formulations are difficult for humans to understand. But through humor, it's easy; it's a shortcut. '”

In another section of the interview with the Ukrainian president, the authors raise the costs that the people they lead must have suffered in confronting Putin's invaders. “Humor in Ukraine is now mainly of the darkest kind. At times, Zelensky seemed stunned by the cruelty of it all. He tried to explain why he cannot feel - because most Ukrainians cannot feel - much satisfaction with his victories on the battlefield. Yes, they expelled the powerful Russian army from the northern part of the country. Yes, they killed, according to their calculations, more than 19,000 Russian soldiers. Yes, they claim to have captured, destroyed or damaged more than 600 tanks. Yes, they claim to have sunk the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet. Yes, they have changed the image of their country, and their understanding of themselves. But the price has been colossal.”

“Too many Ukrainians, Zelensky told us, did not die in battle, but 'in the act of torture'. Children froze into hiding in basements; women were raped; old people died of hunger; pedestrians were killed in the street. 'How can these people enjoy the victory? ' , he asked. 'They won't be able to do to Russian soldiers what [the Russians] did to their sons or daughters... so they don't feel this victory. ' The real victory, he said, will only come when the perpetrators are tried, condemned and sentenced.”

“How long do we have to wait?” , interrogates.

“Suddenly, it made it personal. He has two children, he reminded us. 'My daughter is almost 18 years old. I don't want to imagine, but if something had happened to my daughter, I wouldn't have settled if the attack had been repelled and the soldiers had fled, 'he said. 'I would have looked for those people and I would have found them. And then I would feel the victory'”, say the journalists.

- What would you have done when you found them?

- I don't know. Everything.

“Then, as if he remembered the role that history has given him, as an avatar of democratic civilization facing the cruelty of a lawless regime, he became reflective. 'You realize that if you want to be a member of a civilized society, you have to calm down, because the law decides everything. '”

“There will be no complete victory for people who lost their children, relatives, husbands, wives, fathers. That's what I mean,” he said. “They will not feel victory, even when our territories are liberated.”

* This note was originally published in The Atlantic.

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