Leopoldo López Gil: “A tribunal like the one in Nuremberg is necessary for Putin and the commanders who executed the infamous orders in Ukraine”

This week Buenos Aires is hosting the 14th plenary session of the Euro-Latin American Parliamentary Assembly (Eurolat), the first face-to-face session since the coronavirus pandemic. Leopoldo López Gil is one of the 75 MEPs participating in the working days that will last until Thursday 14, which will discuss criminal cooperation, the phenomenon of hate speech, the negotiation of trade agreements between the two regions, culture, circular economy, drug trafficking and sexual rights and reproductive.

However, the focus of the forum will be on the post-pandemic recovery process and the effects of the war in Ukraine on the global food market.

In dialogue with Infobae, the MEP for the People's Party (PP) of Spain and father of Venezuelan opposition leader Leopoldo López, analyzed the current conflict in Ukraine, the reaction of the international community, and also addressed the dramatic humanitarian crisis in his home country: Venezuela.

-We've been invading Ukraine for almost 50 days. As a Member of the European Parliament, what is your assessment of these weeks in which we have seen atrocities committed against the Ukrainian civilian population?

-The war in Ukraine calls on humanity to rethink what has been the development of the last century. Unfortunately, since the middle of the last century we have seen how we had not learned from the pain of a war, of a persecution of a population, as we are now seeing with this unjustified Russian invasion of its neighboring country. We are also understanding with great concern how inadequate are the instruments we have in the countries that want peace, which signed the declaration of human rights in 47th year, which they formed after the League of Nations. The new attempt that has endured so far by the United Nations, and that we do not have instruments that can really enforce decisions. This is the most painful thing, the most worrying thing of what we are seeing. We have seen how the world needs to come together to fight common enemies, such as the pandemic, as well as the irrational use of power as is the case with Mr Putin and Russia today. We have threats like the case of China, and at the same time we see how China can play a very important role right now in forcing the scales to achieve that necessary peace.

-The West, with the United States and the European Union (EU) at the helm, applied a strong package of sanctions that even Putin himself did not expect. Can this reaction be considered a red flag for other regimes such as China, Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua in the future?

-It's a red flag. It is also a sign that it is not only the instruments of diplomatic policies that are sometimes sufficient. We have always believed that diplomacy should precede any other solution, much less solutions to violence, such as war. However, we are seeing that unfortunately it will be necessary to impose perhaps, or stop the claims of Putin and Russia, with more than the instruments of diplomacy. The soft weapons of diplomacy, of sanctions, are not enough, they have not stopped it, and they require some time for the population to become aware of the barbarity they are committing under the leadership of Mr Putin.

- What else should be done?

-There must be much more military aid to Ukraine. It has to be much more effective. Not to escalate or delay a war that should end as quickly as possible, but to prevent precisely the invader from having a strong negotiating position. It is necessary to impose fair negotiating conditions. Ukraine must be given all possible military support.

-Russian troops met with fierce resistance from Ukrainian forces. Was there a mistake in Putin's calculation?

-No, it's not a miscalculation. Unfortunately, and we also experienced this in the last century when Mr. Hitler decided to arm in a way beyond all reason the Germany of that time, and to threaten invasions, how the warnings of a man like Churchill fell on deaf ears. Simply the desire for peace on the part of a character like Chamberlain prevailed. I think that here we have to remember again Prime Minister Palmerston of the United Kingdom when he said that the kingdom had no permanent enemies, but it always had permanent interests. What we are seeing, precisely because the deaf have become deaf in the face of the threat, I have no doubt that it has a lot to do with an energy dependence on Europe and the world's dependence on certain commodities, such as wheat and other foods. One third of the wheat consumed worldwide leaves the region of Ukraine and Russia. It is obvious that people wanted to maintain a level of welfare in their countries and not subject them as they are subjecting them to price increases, to inflation due to rising commodity prices, and other minerals. Issues that are essential to maintain the reins of the economy.

- How would you describe Putin?

-He is remarking his status as an autocrat, and of a rather egomaniac person. It has a grip in power that tries to bring it to the historical expression of Great Russia.

-Despite the millions of refugees that the war has already caused, the atrocities perpetrated by Russian troops and the increasing reports of war crimes, in Latin America there has been a rather flexible stance in countries such as Argentina, Mexico and Brazil, and of total complicity in others, such as Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba and Nicaragua. As a Venezuelan, a Latin American, how do you feel when you see this response from our region to what is happening in Ukraine?

- I see it with great sadness. Interests predominate over values; there is total dedication to convenience and, of course, not to mention regimes such as those in Cuba and Nicaragua, and even more so dependence on Venezuela. Because today, of those three countries, the most dependent on Russia is Venezuela. It depends not only on its financial structure, but also on the export and marketing of its oil. In addition, since the time of Hugo Chavez the purchase of weapons from Russia went to the extreme: from setting up a factory of automatic Kalashnikov rifles, which is operating today. In addition, ammunition factories, which is a different ammunition from that used in NATO and, of course, as we know in recent years the establishment of bases equipped with the ability to send short- and medium-range missiles. But it would have no other enemy than its neighbors, including the United States and particularly Colombia and Brazil.

-You're talking about Venezuela's dependence on Russia. Much is speculated about the future of Putin and post-war Russia in Ukraine. How would a possible fall of Putin affect Venezuela?

-If Putin falls and does not change the regime, it would not affect anything. I would just change the color of the shoes, but it would be the same shoes. I think that what could be expected we will not see in the short term, which is a change in the regime's attitude towards a democratic regime, more respectful of individual rights and freedoms.

-At first you were talking about how humanity did not learn from the pain of past wars. What teaching does this current conflict leave?

- I think a lot of them. But the fundamental thing is that peace is as fragile as democracy and must be taken care of every day. There are more enemies of peace and democracy and freedoms. We live in a very changing world, and unfortunately institutions such as those we have are not good enough to safeguard the values of democracy, peace, freedom, justice in the world. Future generations will face much more complex challenges, precisely because in the world of communications we cannot forget the respect for institutions or the strength that they must have in the institutions of the future to assert the main values that I mentioned earlier.

-Although the focus these days is on Ukraine, in Venezuela the population continues to suffer the worst humanitarian crisis in its history. Last year, a dialogue table was launched which, once again, did not yield concrete results. How is the current situation in the country going and how do you see the opposition in the face of the great challenge of facing the Maduro dictatorship?

-Unfortunately, conditions are still catastrophic, no matter how much you want to see that there is a relative improvement. The country still has 85 per cent of its population in enormous poverty. These are data given by the United Nations, not data that can be given by an interested party. They are applauding that there is no longer talk of three-digit inflation, but of two. In the last year it remains so persistent that it makes it impossible to acquire goods, except for the new oligarchic leadership that 21st century socialism has established. Wages go to a derisory extreme, that a university professor is earning less than two dollars a month at the official exchange rate. They have transformed the population into a population 100% dependent on the food that the regime can give them, and therefore it is very difficult to fight against that with such a dependent population. On the other hand, the issue of opposition remains a problem. But it will remain a problem until the free exercise of politics is allowed in Venezuela. Many of the leaders are in exile, they are outside... the same thing is happening as in previous dictatorships, when they are kept on absolutely illegal routes. Membership in political activity and the exercise of politics cannot be genuinely opposed. At the moment there are more than 300 political prisoners in Venezuela, more than 200 officers of our armed forces who are being held in prison. Many of them have been more than ten years old, and most of them are not even brought to trial. Then dissent ends up being too risky. Therefore, the call for unity is very complex. Precisely because there is no leadership that can genuinely bring together the opposition.

- Does the fact that the focus is on Ukraine give Maduro air?

- I'm sure you do. That's another lesson. Sanctions require a will. Sanctions are imposed by institutions such as the European Union. However, it must be carried out by each of the member states. As we are now seeing with the sanctions against the Russian oligarchs. If no work is done to investigate where the goods are, who the front men are, where the activities are, then the sanctions do not make any sense. And that is what happened in the Venezuelan case. Those sanctioned continue to enjoy all their ill-gotten heritage.

- So what kind of sanctions are being applied to Russia, should we do with Venezuela?

It would have to be done, but take it seriously. At one point, the vice-president of the regime [Delcy Rodríguez] flew to Spain under sanction, being prohibited from landing. Not only did she land in Madrid, but she was received by a minister, and whose later explanation was that she was never in Spain, only at the airport. The airport is not floating in space, it is on Spanish territory.

-Last week the Prosecutor's Office of the International Criminal Court announced that it will open an office in Caracas. Do you consider this step positive in the midst of investigations into human rights violations?

-This news has not been well interpreted. To establish an office it has to be formally announced, I think that this has not happened. However, I do not think it is necessary to open an office to conduct investigations against human rights violators.

- Do you see Maduro and Putin facing international justice in the future?

-These are different circumstances. A special tribunal is being called for in the case of Russia, because they are war crimes, which are not exactly the same as those that have hitherto been jurisprudence before the ICC in Venezuela. The systemic use of human rights abuse is what is being seen in Venezuela, and what could lead Maduro to stand trial. Torture as a state policy, prisons and disappearances, as Mrs Bachelet highlighted in her report, is the kind of thing that can bring Maduro to trial. However, in the case of Putin, it is different because they are crimes that are being committed in a state at war.

-Specifically, the need for a tribunal such as the one in Nuremberg has been demanded. Would you agree with this initiative to try Putin?

- I think so. You definitely have to do that. Not just Putin, but each of the commanders who executed these infamous orders that we are seeing in Ukraine.

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